QB rushing

[Cmcm2297]

Has there been any thoughts about nerfing rushing with QBs in this? Its basically impossible to defend against and through the first 3 weeks of Cardinals1 2 QBs are top 4 rushing yards. 1. Being Josh Allen at almost 500 yards. The other being jacoby brissett(4th) at almost 300 yards. I get taking advantage of it while its there so this isn't a knock at those coaches.

[UmmBerrto]

Has there been any thoughts about nerfing rushing with QBs in this? Its basically impossible to defend against and through the first 3 weeks of Cardinals1 2 QBs are top 4 rushing yards. 1. Being Josh Allen at almost 500 yards. The other being jacoby brissett(4th) at almost 300 yards. I get taking advantage of it while its there so this isn't a knock at those coaches.

I did the same thing my first season.

Lots of guys made a fuss about it.

So, I went away from it.

It just didn't sit right with me.

I guess some guys just like playing video games with cheat codes.

They can't win any other way.

Supposedly, when a Qb runs the ball too much, in this sim, the Qb will suffer with his passing performance being downgraded.

When I did it a couple of seasons ago, it was with Lamar, and his passing performance was terrible anyway, that season, so I couldn't really tell the difference.

There was one team, a couple of seasons ago, that the owner had found a blitz package that allowed his team to record twice as many sacks as the NFL's number #1 sack unit of all-time.

I figure guys like that just justify themselves to themselves.

It's a game, they are playing by the rules.

Side note: that guy wasn't even supposed to be able to draft Josh Allen, the previous pick was messed up by the owner who drafted the wrong Josh Allen.

He probably would have drafted another Running QB anyway.

So, does it really matter?

Limiting the number of runs by a Qb could be an option.

However, he would probably get mad and quit the game.

Again.

[Cmcm2297]

I want to be clear i was not calling out the people who are playing the game within the rules more that a particular thing in the game is broken and could use some attention. I don't blame anyone for playing the game.

[Kingswood]

Has there been any thoughts about nerfing rushing with QBs in this? Its basically impossible to defend against and through the first 3 weeks of Cardinals1 2 QBs are top 4 rushing yards. 1. Being Josh Allen at almost 500 yards. The other being jacoby brissett(4th) at almost 300 yards. I get taking advantage of it while its there so this isn't a knock at those coaches.

There's several factors that are being missed or blatantly ignored so I'll try my best to cover just a few of them.

1. QB runs are not impossible to defend against. I've had similar gameplans get shutdown. I'm not going to tell you how to stop me...
2. Not all QB runs are by design. Scrambles are also QB runs. Guessing by the variance in the passing percentages in the box score; sacks, at times, may or may not be included in those numbers.
3. In real life, Josh Allen has had 135y in a single game (only 9 carries).
4. In real life, Josh Allen has had 15 carries in a single game.
5. I'm averaging about 20 carries and 140y per game this year.
6. Both teams also have RB's that are top 10 in yards.
7. Josh Allen already has 5 fumbles on the year. In real life the most he's ever had in a season is 14, that means I'm beating that pace. High risk, High reward.
8. While you're all so concerned about my Allen on the ground, you failed to mention that he's also top 10 in passing attempts, completions, and yards. He also leads the league in passing TD's.
9. Lamar Jackson has had over 20 carries in a game multiple times.
10. Justin Fields, Mike Vick, Jalen Hurts, Lamar Jackson, Collin Kaepernick, and Tobin Rote (Packers' QB in the early 50's) have all had games with 150 or more yards on the ground. The list gets a lot longer if you dial it back to 100y in a game.

I drafted a dual-threat QB and now you're mad that I'm using him as a dual-threat QB? Am I stretching the carries a bit? Absolutely, it's a sim and I don't have to worry about my QB getting injured. I've also had my DE get a sack and get called for defensive holding on the same play. I've seen more safeties than I would in a typical season. I've seen record amounts of sacks in a season. I've seen record amounts of punt and kick return TD's.

In short, my counter is that my QB's rushing stats are normal by sim standards. I have a dual-threat QB, why would I not utilize him to his fullest capacity? Doesn't sound like a smart coaching move.

[Cmcm2297]

I clearly stated I wasn't mad that you were using g him that way but ok clearly you read it differently. If you don't see an issue with the success of running with the QB in this game you're crazy. Also didn't ignore the passing stats they were irrelevant to what I was saying.

[Cmcm2297]

Actually stated 2 times my complaint wasn't about the coaches use of the running QB so you must have missed it both times

[UmmBerrto]

Justify Themselves

[cdcox]

QB rushing is programmed to be much less effective if you exceed the carries per game of the QB in the NFL.

Let me know if you think I need to take another look at it.

[UmmBerrto]

QB rushing is programmed to be much less effective if you exceed the carries per game of the QB in the NFL.

Let me know if you think I need to take another look at it.


Should not the complete performance of the QB be much less effective?

On a per game basis and cumulatively through the season?

[smackawits]

I have a running QB and I don't even know how to schedule him to run (except to put everyone else at 0)

[Cmcm2297]

I have a running QB and I don't even know how to schedule him to run (except to put everyone else at 0)

Go to 5 wr set and set passing to anything less than 100% the QB will run the ball for the not passing plays

[Kingswood]

Actually stated 2 times my complaint wasn't about the coaches use of the running QB so you must have missed it both times

I didn't necessarily mean to direct it towards you. I merely replied to your original comment because Ummberrto is a child and isn't worth acknowledging. I'd prefer to have an adult conversation about this. If you weren't "mad" about it then you wouldn't have mentioned it at all. I wasn't trying to say that you're mad at the coaches, more that you're mad that it's even possible. My post wasn't intended to be aggressive or even passive aggressive so I'm not sure why you're reacting like you're being attacked. If anything, me and my gameplan are being attacked.

The passing stats are not irrelevant at all. You're attacking my QB's performance so you should include his entire performance. Don't take things out of context. There's a big difference between using a dual-threat QB as just that and rushing the ball with your QB 40x a game, like Ummberrrto did when he first started. In this context, it shows that defenses haven't slowed down my offense no matter if I'm throwing or running. Sounds like less of an issue with my QB runs and more of an issue with their defense. Having a RB top 10 in rushing yards also supports that argument. As I mentioned before, QB runs are stoppable and have been stopped before, numerous times. Again, I'm not gonna tel you how to do it. Maybe if half the teams in the league didn't draft for the '23 season then things would be different.

I don't see any more of an issue with QB running than I do with anything else in this sim and I posted both NFL stats and SB examples to support my statement. If you want to take it even further you can look at college as well. In 2017 Arizona QB Khalil Tate logged 153c in a season. Tim Tebow had 210c in 2007, 176c in 2008, and 217c in 2009. Explain to me how my rushing has been any different. You're counter argument is 'I'm crazy'. Not exactly sure what I'm supposed to do with that. I'm not going to have a mobile QB and stand in the pocket all game. I'm also not going to sit back while you try to get extra limitations put on my players because you don't know how to stop it. My QB numbers, while not the norm, are not implausible.

[Kingswood]

I have a running QB and I don't even know how to schedule him to run (except to put everyone else at 0)

You can't set your HB1 to 0%. Setting the other HB's to 0% will just put the HB1 to 100%. The only way to do designed QB runs is to set your 5wr sets less than 100% passing. Again, all QB runs are out of 5wr set which means you're typically facing a much lighter box as well since nearly every person uses Dime against 4wr and 5wr sets.

[Cmcm2297]

I didn't necessarily mean to direct it towards you. I merely replied to your original comment because Ummberrto is a child and isn't worth acknowledging. I'd prefer to have an adult conversation about this. If you weren't "mad" about it then you wouldn't have mentioned it at all. I wasn't trying to say that you're mad at the coaches, more that you're mad that it's even possible. My post wasn't intended to be aggressive or even passive aggressive so I'm not sure why you're reacting like you're being attacked. If anything, me and my gameplan are being attacked.

The passing stats are not irrelevant at all. You're attacking my QB's performance so you should include his entire performance. Don't take things out of context. There's a big difference between using a dual-threat QB as just that and rushing the ball with your QB 40x a game, like Ummberrrto did when he first started. In this context, it shows that defenses haven't slowed down my offense no matter if I'm throwing or running. Sounds like less of an issue with my QB runs and more of an issue with their defense. Having a RB top 10 in rushing yards also supports that argument. As I mentioned before, QB runs are stoppable and have been stopped before, numerous times. Again, I'm not gonna tel you how to do it. Maybe if half the teams in the league didn't draft for the '23 season then things would be different.

I don't see any more of an issue with QB running than I do with anything else in this sim and I posted both NFL stats and SB examples to support my statement. If you want to take it even further you can look at college as well. In 2017 Arizona QB Khalil Tate logged 153c in a season. Tim Tebow had 210c in 2007, 176c in 2008, and 217c in 2009. Explain to me how my rushing has been any different. You're counter argument is 'I'm crazy'. Not exactly sure what I'm supposed to do with that. I'm not going to have a mobile QB and stand in the pocket all game. I'm also not going to sit back while you try to get extra limitations put on my players because you don't know how to stop it. My QB numbers, while not the norm, are not implausible.

Yet again you act as if I'm attacking the game plan or you which I'm not. I said running with the QB in this game is broken and gave a couple examples from the league that is actively having games. I encourage people to use it while its available, but it needs tweaking. I didn't say get rid of running with the QB. I didn't even say limit the usage. The effectiveness of running with QBs in the game is broken. Thats all I said.

[Cmcm2297]

You can also use me telling Smackawits how to run with the QB as an example that im not mad about it and encourage it. Just think it needs some adjusting on the games end. Not to make it useless but more balanced

[Kingswood]

Yet again you act as if I'm attacking the game plan or you which I'm not. I said running with the QB in this game is broken and gave a couple examples from the league that is actively having games. I encourage people to use it while its available, but it needs tweaking. I didn't say get rid of running with the QB. I didn't even say limit the usage. The effectiveness of running with QBs in the game is broken. Thats all I said.

Right, you keep saying that while offering no supporting arguments. I'm saying I disagree while offering supporting arguments. You seem to be more caught up on how I feel about it than the actual point of the conversation. I get where you're coming from. I understand your perspective. I just disagree. We can disagree without it getting emotional. You say it needs tweaking but you don't think usage should be limited. How should it be tweaked? Should QB's be limited to 4ypc? Should they fumble every 5 carries? What exactly are you proposing? The effectiveness is not broken. If that was the case then I wouldn't have RB's with higher averages than my QB. For Detroit, Patterson is averaging 5.7ypa vs Brissett who is averaging 4.95. On my team Chuba Hubbard is averaging 11ypc (albeit on only 16att) and Caleb Huntley is avg 6.76ypc vs Allen avg 6.95ypc. I think at some point we have to take scheme and personnel into account don't we?
I know you're not mad at me man. I'm not mad at you either for bringing it up. Like I said it's worth having a conversation about, I just disagree with your conclusion. Sometimes I use the word mad as an expression and not necessarily to mean angry or pissed. You've been one of my day 1's so trust me I'm not trippin over this at all. I'm just defending my stance. If you can come up with a valid argument to counter mine then I'm happy to hear it out. I can talk football all day everyday, just ask my wife lol.

[Cmcm2297]

Right, you keep saying that while offering no supporting arguments. I'm saying I disagree while offering supporting arguments. You seem to be more caught up on how I feel about it than the actual point of the conversation. I get where you're coming from. I understand your perspective. I just disagree. We can disagree without it getting emotional. You say it needs tweaking but you don't think usage should be limited. How should it be tweaked? Should QB's be limited to 4ypc? Should they fumble every 5 carries? What exactly are you proposing? The effectiveness is not broken. If that was the case then I wouldn't have RB's with higher averages than my QB. For Detroit, Patterson is averaging 5.7ypa vs Brissett who is averaging 4.95. On my team Chuba Hubbard is averaging 11ypc (albeit on only 16att) and Caleb Huntley is avg 6.76ypc vs Allen avg 6.95ypc. I think at some point we have to take scheme and personnel into account don't we?
I know you're not mad at me man. I'm not mad at you either for bringing it up. Like I said it's worth having a conversation about, I just disagree with your conclusion. Sometimes I use the word mad as an expression and not necessarily to mean angry or pissed. You've been one of my day 1's so trust me I'm not trippin over this at all. I'm just defending my stance. If you can come up with a valid argument to counter mine then I'm happy to hear it out. I can talk football all day everyday, just ask my wife lol.

Maybe the issue isn't the QB running maybe its the lack of options to defend against it. Like you said in a previous post you have to be in 5wr set to run with QB which will force most teams into dime packages but on the flip side if a team were to switch out of dime packages you would get passed all over, in your case you're already doing both, but that's not the norm. So it's more or less impossible to stop both my suggestion would be to add the QB to the handoff% like the HB1, HB2, HB3, FB. That still doesn't fix the other issue though and I don't have a good fix for the other issue. Maybe be able to set % of defence packages against offensive packages wouldn't be a guaranteed fix but then we could set 50% dime 50% run defense and it should atleast match up appropriately sometimes. I don't have a full proof fix though

[Wind From West]

You can also use me telling Smackawits how to run with the QB as an example that im not mad about it and encourage it. Just think it needs some adjusting on the games end. Not to make it useless but more balanced

Sure hope your team doesnt turn into a bot2. I had a defense that sorta worked with the QB running constantly. If I can find my notebook, I'll pm you.

This Sim has GMs that are 100% devoted. Thats fine and all, its just we're not all like that so communication breaks down, imo.

[Cmcm2297]

Sure hope your team doesnt turn into a bot2. I had a defense that sorta worked with the QB running constantly. If I can find my notebook, I'll pm you.

This Sim has GMs that are 100% devoted. Thats fine and all, its just we're not all like that so communication breaks down, imo.

I have no intention of quitting lol

[Reggy]

I don't really have an issue with the true dual-threat QBs. More with those who have never rushed for over 300 yards in a season, and all of that coming on scrambles. Those guys would die on the field if they ran 20 QB draws.

[Wind From West]

Right on man!

[UmmBerrto]

Maybe the issue isn't the QB running maybe its the lack of options to defend against it. Like you said in a previous post you have to be in 5wr set to run with QB which will force most teams into dime packages but on the flip side if a team were to switch out of dime packages you would get passed all over, in your case you're already doing both, but that's not the norm. So it's more or less impossible to stop both my suggestion would be to add the QB to the handoff% like the HB1, HB2, HB3, FB. That still doesn't fix the other issue though and I don't have a good fix for the other issue. Maybe be able to set % of defence packages against offensive packages wouldn't be a guaranteed fix but then we could set 50% dime 50% run defense and it should atleast match up appropriately sometimes. I don't have a full proof fix though



I like the idea of setting the QB in with the Back percentages.

Seems like it would be a near complete fix of the issue, however.

Only other addition would be to revamp the QB run effectiveness algorithm to eliminate the long off book scrambles from its calculations when in a designed run.

Otherwise, we would just have Josh and the likes running 8-15 yards out of the I formation, and that solves nothing.

Computing averages, based on actual QB designed run statistics only, would probably help.

Assuming those numbers are newly available.

That could definitively balance the sim with reality, even if those new numbers are used in the 5wr set only.

I seem to remember Cox saying that one of the reasons QB run averages are so inflated is because the current computation includes a lot of 3rd and long QB runs.

Runs where all the DB's are back in deep coverage chasing WR's and once the pocket breaks down there is nothing in front of the QB but open field for 10/15/20 yards.

Cox...

Is there now a source of statistics that gives you QB run numbers usable for the algorithm based solely on QB designed runs without the off-book scrambles?

If possible, perhaps you can leave the actual scramble numbers in, for when a broken pocket actually happens, in the sim too.

On the first glance, at least, one would think, those new numbers based only on designed QB runs, would probably make the results in sim more realistic...

Is this possible? Are those numbers on QB designed runs now available to you? I am guessing they were not previously available, are they now?

Have you looked recently? If not, would you look when you get some time? It could be a true game changer that might not be that time consuming for install next season.

Just my opinions, and ideas, I could be wrong.

I'd appreciate knowing your mind on the concept.

[tambaberry]

these are the same people in online madden who run the same broken play over and over again.

[Kingswood]

these are the same people in online madden who run the same broken play over and over again.

Sounds like you suck at Madden.

[Kingswood]

Maybe the issue isn't the QB running maybe its the lack of options to defend against it. Like you said in a previous post you have to be in 5wr set to run with QB which will force most teams into dime packages but on the flip side if a team were to switch out of dime packages you would get passed all over, in your case you're already doing both, but that's not the norm. So it's more or less impossible to stop both my suggestion would be to add the QB to the handoff% like the HB1, HB2, HB3, FB. That still doesn't fix the other issue though and I don't have a good fix for the other issue. Maybe be able to set % of defence packages against offensive packages wouldn't be a guaranteed fix but then we could set 50% dime 50% run defense and it should atleast match up appropriately sometimes. I don't have a full proof fix though

In the NFL would you run out in a base formation half the time that Josh Allen was on the field with 5wr? What do you think he would do if he had a QB draw called? He would probably audible to a pass. Likewise if you have 6 DB's on the field and you're dropping back in coverage, odds are he's going to audible to a run or drop back and then scramble against a light box. I'm not sure how calling base 50% of the time and dime 50% of the time is supposed to solve the "problem." Yes, a dual-threat QB is difficult to stop. That's the entire point. It's no more difficult in SB than it is in the NFL or college.
Rashan Gary had a total of 6 sacks last year. In our league he already has 7 in just 3 games. Does that mean that he should no longer be effective as a pass rusher? In Patriots1 Stefon Diggs had twice the amount of drops that he's had in his worst NFL season. Nobody seemed to be too concerned with the catch rate. Right now Marco Wilson has 3 ints which matches his season total in all of 2022. No tears for his INT rate though. If you're going to nitpick about one thing then you have to nitpick about all of it. Like I said, QB runs are no further askew than anything else in this sim. 6-7ypc vs 3-5 people in the box is not farfetched.

[Cmcm2297]

In the NFL would you run out in a base formation half the time that Josh Allen was on the field with 5wr? What do you think he would do if he had a QB draw called? He would probably audible to a pass. Likewise if you have 6 DB's on the field and you're dropping back in coverage, odds are he's going to audible to a run or drop back and then scramble against a light box. I'm not sure how calling base 50% of the time and dime 50% of the time is supposed to solve the "problem." Yes, a dual-threat QB is difficult to stop. That's the entire point. It's no more difficult in SB than it is in the NFL or college.
Rashan Gary had a total of 6 sacks last year. In our league he already has 7 in just 3 games. Does that mean that he should no longer be effective as a pass rusher? In Patriots1 Stefon Diggs had twice the amount of drops that he's had in his worst NFL season. Nobody seemed to be too concerned with the catch rate. Right now Marco Wilson has 3 ints which matches his season total in all of 2022. No tears for his INT rate though. If you're going to nitpick about one thing then you have to nitpick about all of it. Like I said, QB runs are no further askew than anything else in this sim. 6-7ypc vs 3-5 people in the box is not farfetched.

In real life the defenders are aware and know what's going on so in the back of their mind they know, we are playing Josh Allen, Lamar Jackson, Justin Fields, Daniel Jones, etc. This doesn't have that all it has is QBs have this success rate running against dime defenses so the QB will be this successful. I agree their are plenty of other issues none impacting things on a game to game basis more than running QBs and the sack numbers probably.

[Cmcm2297]

Also the problem isn't that Josh Allen has so many rushing yards in this league specifically its the success of all QBs running in all leagues I've been in and challenge games I've seen, not just dual threat QBs. So I don't see Marco Wilson at 3 ints as big of a deal. Like I said I do agree the sack numbers are crazy as well.

[Kingswood]

Also the problem isn't that Josh Allen has so many rushing yards in this league specifically its the success of all QBs running in all leagues I've been in and challenge games I've seen, not just dual threat QBs. So I don't see Marco Wilson at 3 ints as big of a deal. Like I said I do agree the sack numbers are crazy as well.

Fair point about the defensive awareness aspect but I believe that's what Cox was trying to take into consideration when he implemented more attempts = less success. I haven't actually encountered QB runs from pocket QB's too much. I play a lot of the same teams over and over on the challenge boards and I haven't come across it in league play. I agree that having a QB like Brady, Stafford, or Goff rushing for 100y a game on a consistent basis would be a big red flag but I just haven't seen it personally. And Marco Wilson may not be on your radar now but wait until week 16 when he has 12 picks on the season lol. I really just came to accept SB for its quirks like I do Madden or any other game really. Maybe after I graduate I'll see if I can help out at all with the programming. Good luck tonight!

[Reggy]

What we are basically talking about is this:
Jacoby Brissett
203 att
1177 yds
5 tds
5.8 ypc

I'm fine with outlier performances from players who already do something well

[Dbillblood]

Dang so i should just set Fields to run a bunch is what youre all telling me? I mean he runs a bit from broken plays as is, but he cant run like that ever. Oddly he was the best running QB in RL in 22 lmao

[JohnMeynardie]

I don’t have a problem with someone using the game’s flaws but hope those flaws get corrected. If you force 5wr sets to pass, i.e. pass has to be 100, you would get some scrambles but eliminate the 2000 yard rushing QB.

[pit1232]

Question is there a way to have a player on the defense that will spy on the QB like some of the NFL team do when they are playing a QB that will run. So Is there any way cdcox can make a defense formation in the game planning to help this out.

[UmmBerrto]

Question is there a way to have a player on the defense that will spy on the QB like some of the NFL team do when they are playing a QB that will run. So Is there any way cdcox can make a defense formation in the game planning to help this out.



I don't think so, however, making sure your best run stopping MLB/ILB is in your dime package, might help, some...